Are We Trading Freedom For Fast Shipping

A drone shows up over your neighborhood and suddenly the biggest political question is not taxes or potholes, it is: who owns the sky above your backyard, and what data is being collected while you grill dinner? We dig into why AI drones and surveillance tech feel “Skynet-adjacent” to so many people right now, and why that gut reaction deserves a serious public conversation instead of a shrug from lawmakers.

We talk through the two faces of drone delivery: the promise of convenience and the real costs in noise pollution, quality of life, and privacy. Then we zoom out to government use, including what it means when public agencies buy AI-enabled drones that can gather information continuously. From noise ordinances to operating-hour limits, we lay out what proactive local legislation could look like, and why waiting until the tech is everywhere guarantees a messy, reactive future.

From there, we get concrete about risk: what happens when a drone falls, hits a car, or injures someone, and why liability can quickly become “everybody gets involved.” We also unpack license plate readers and Flock cameras, including data retention, who controls access, where the data is stored, and why even rare abuses should change how communities evaluate these tools. We end with the next wave of infrastructure debates, like data centers, constant humming noise, and water usage in Michigan.

If you care about privacy rights, the Constitution, local elections, and how technology is reshaping policing and daily life, this is for you. Subscribe, share this with a neighbor, and leave a review with your take: where should your community draw the line?

https://www.ren4misenate.com/

https://www.facebook.com/RenNushajForStateSenate/

Transcript

Why Drones Feel Like Skynet

Jamie Flanagan 0:13

Hey, this is James over politics in the podcast. And we're talking about the issues that are important uh to people in the communities as we head up to the election and talk to the people who are running for election who will help us manage uh uh these things that are in our lives every day and a lot of things. I got a lot of questions. So Ren Deshani is here again, as always. Ren, uh thanks for hanging out.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Thank you.

Jamie Flanagan 0:38

So, Ren, I I want the data on what the flock with the with the the drones.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Yeah, we'll tell you all. It's so interesting, Jamie. It it is one of the main questions that one fields right now as we go around the community door knocking, talking to people in all the every avenue possible is the number one question. I it feels like, and it's uh and it's understandable as to why, but it is nonetheless not easy to get adjusted to the fact that that's one of the top issues.

Jamie Flanagan 1:10

The the AI, the the technology, and the all those things in our lives that seem to be really invading, it's getting close to Skynet.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

It really, you know, I tell you, I it feels like every conspiracy theory out there is coming to be true, turning out to be true. So it it is it it it it it is quite honestly uh stupefying and worrisome, and of course, the opportunities are endless with respect to this. So, you know, we have we have so much to consider as a society, and it feels like all this is coming about without us having actually a conversation about the benefit versus the detriments, sure, and and and without the conversation happening, you know, conversations are the you know the preamble to legislation. So, unless we're having this you know good, honest conversation with one another about what we want as a society, what we want as a community, yeah, there is no way to have reasonable legislation with respect to this, and that's why you're seeing our legislators sort of you know out there just you know with their hands up and they don't know what they're doing, right? It's just unbelievable.

Jamie Flanagan 2:14

So I'd say they're teaching journalism in high school and teaching high school, and I let kids know that the whole concept of civil rights and and your first amendment rights, and I tell kids you can say anything, you can do anything you want to, you can do anything you want to do in this world, absolutely, you can do up unto the point you are impeding on someone else's civil rights. Absolutely, right? So kids love to swear, right? They love to swear, it's like it's almost a hostile work environment. There's so much swearing in the hallways. I'm like, would you stop swearing? Because I'm gonna swear if you're swearing, it just you know. So it it but if that makes me uncomfortable, then you've impeded on my civil rights and and your my pursuit of happiness, and and so you don't have free reign to to just speak like that, however,

Delivery Drones And Neighborhood Noise

Jamie Flanagan 3:05

whatever. Um so it the drones, right? So Colleen and I, my wife, we're we're out on our our walk, we take our little loop around, a little three-mile loop around our neighborhood. And just this past week, for the first time, there's this drone, right? She had told me about drones earlier, but teaching during the school year, I didn't uh I didn't see them, but we were out on a weekday afternoon walk, and then somebody cutting their grass, and it was like, no, there's she said they're huge, yes, and they're actually kind of sizable, yes, they are, uh, and a little bit loud, a loud loud. So and and so it the convenience is great, sure. The I don't know if it's a gas saving, time saving, road saving. Are there are there savings in there? Imagine, absolutely. I'm sure they wouldn't do it if if if the numbers didn't crunch, correct? But so, but it it it's loud, and so are we giving up you know noise pollution for convenience, right? Absolutely, and that's not my delivery, no, and and she is a staunch get off my lawn kind of gap, and and she doesn't want you know drones and things. She would, she's she's a but we all are, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

We all are, yeah, and she's not alone. Yeah, we don't know that you know we we we we we came to this country, we created this great country with any other idea, really, other than get off my lawn at the end of the day. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the kernel of everything tall fences make good neighbors.

County AI Drones And Backyard Privacy

Jamie Flanagan 4:30

Yes, very much so.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

So I I I think it it's incredible to to experience around Oakland Macomb County and uh everywhere, I suppose, but this is our community, this is where we live. And and it it it's been stupefying to see that our legislators at all levels of government. I think about our Troy City Council, I think about our Oakland County Board of Commissioners, they're asleep at the wheel. Uh I don't know if you're aware, I'm sure you've heard the Oakland County Commission just set up itself to purchase seven new drones to the tune of, I don't know, three point some million dollars. And it it was an incredible cost for for and the argument being we're we're purchasing these drones in order for us to be able to uh collect uh to collect data whenever the police are chasing someone and for those kinds of activities. Sure. But they are they are AI drones, right? Right. So they collect information no matter what, and they're going over your backyard and my backyard, and as we're in the privacy of our own homes. And it's not like they stop collecting data when they're over our stuff, yeah, right? It's just a continuous gathering of information. And the question is where do we stand with respect to this? What makes sense for our communities? And I'm not sure that we have this, we have a solution yet, right? We haven't even had a conversation yet. And Oakland County Board of Commissioners just did it as a matter of course, and the community showed up. We had on one of those meetings where they were going to vote on it, there was about, oh, I don't know, a couple hundred people that showed up that felt strongly. And imagine this is a meeting in the middle of the week where people are busy, they got families, they got everything, and they show up to talk about it, and the issue is completely ignored, their concerns are ignored. We can't have stuff like that. We have to be able to talk about this, right? Because I'm like your wife, I don't want anything over my my the back in my over my backyard, yeah, particularly on the weekend, particularly at well anytime, but you know, here you are on the weekend, enjoying your stuff, enjoying your time, and then you know, this happens, and right, and we are giving up so much for convenience. And the question is, you know, is it worth it? And what is the benefit? What is that you know, the calculation? And I'm not sure that this bears it out, to be perfectly honest with you. And I'm I'm and I'm all about convenience at the end of the day.

Jamie Flanagan 6:35

I still don't think you go to Google Map, sure, right? And then you can like zoom in on your house, and it's like, all right, that's available to me by just going, click, click. Okay, what is it? What that's where the conspiracy, what do they got? Right, right, right, right. Absolutely, real-time high-res, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

No, and but we're it feels like we're sleepwalking into a surveillance state, yeah, and and I'm not sure that any of us signed up for it.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

We we we we of course want the benefits of technology. Who wouldn't, right? Obviously, it's been immensely beneficial to us, and with that comes some degree of natural tendency to give up certain aspects of privacy. But when the delivery is for my house and your house suffers, it is precisely the argument that you made at the beginning of this, which is why am I giving up liberty for your convenience? Right. And ultimately, and you sounded to me as you're making the statement, I wondered, I'm like, did Jamie go to law school? Because that's exactly what they that's precisely what they taught us in law school, right? That's where you begin when it comes to First Amendment rights and things of that nature. And I think the you know that's the very essence of our constitutional premise in this great country, that is precisely the idea of freedom that we embody as a nation. Why would we give that up for convenience, right?

Jamie Flanagan 7:51

Yeah, so yeah, the two things I always pitch to my kids is like you can do anything up until you impede someone else's civil rights. That's right. And you can sue anybody anytime, place anywhere for anything. Sure. You have to win, but you may or may not win. Well, you can sue anybody anytime for anything. But but so there's like two aspects to to the drones, and the first is the delivery service and and the noisiness of that, and then the other aspect is is the you know, surveillance. Because I'm all for keeping our law enforcement officers safer. Those guys have a hard job, absolutely, and absolutely, you know, second only to teach in high school. I I'm inclined to agree. No, no, way harder, way harder. I don't know, yeah. But uh yeah, all of a sudden I was thinking, boy, if I could be. What if I change the gear? Yeah, teach in class, and we uh keep them in line, right? But Mexican standoff. But so yeah, so it's uh it it's it these drones, who's is is someone piloting them? Are they just randomly are they randomly out there just keeping an eye on things?

SPEAKER_00 9:02

No, and I mean is and this is part of the problem, right? I mean, part of the issue is that they're so because we're not having the conversations that we need to have, we're also not in the in receipt of the information that we need to receive. And further, when we look at the I'm an attorney and and and as an attorney, I look at it, you know, I look at it holistically and from the you know documents and and and and contracts uh aspect as well. And when I look at the contracts, these are not contracts that are for our benefit as consumers, right? They're for the benefit of some major corporation located somewhere in California with its hub somewhere in Ireland, yeah, right? And here we are trying to make sense of their terms and conditions because those are referenced in our contractual agreement. They say they don't say these are our terms, they say, look at these terms over here, we store them again in California and they're constantly changing. Then we as a community are supposed to make sense of this, how I don't know. Yeah, we constantly stare at it again, it's not for our benefits. And anytime we talk about you know, the so many, you know, the changes that we've been experiencing as a community, these are the things that we see where all of a sudden our ability to control outcomes is taken away from us, is monetized for the benefit of someone else, and then is you know, you know, given back to you as like, but you must have it. Yeah, well, I don't know that we must. Oh, yeah. We I think we should at the very least be able to talk about it.

Jamie Flanagan 10:28

Yeah, if I if I had a choice for a drone delivery, I would I would probably say no. You know, I I even like when it's like there's some hubs, there's like some grocery stores and places where they have like pickup hubs, and I like doing those because you know, you know, my house is really hard to find. And so I it it's amazing, and you like it that way. I yeah, I do actually a little bit, and so I don't mind going out, gets me out of the house, give me something to do, you know.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

But ultimately, even for those of us who disagree with you and I but want to be able to have such a delivery, there can be there is a better way, and when you know, talking about the other aspect that you mentioned, the uh the the police aspect, right? Yeah, helping out our police. As you know, I prosecute for a living, yeah, right. And as a prosecutor, I do see the benefits of this and other technologies like this. For example, we have one of the other conversations and and questions that we field quite a bit on the uh on the door knocking that we do now, uh, is the conversation about flock cameras, which are similar in nature, right? Right, you know, two drones. And flock cameras are the cameras that basically take a picture of either license plate readers. Yeah, right. They take a they presumably take a snap image of your license plate, you know, from camera to camera of all our plates, and presumably they store that information for you know the ability of police officers to go out there and help them with whatever crime, trace people from camera to camera. Sure. And theoretically, imminently helpful, right? I can tell you for purposes of my work, I re I see the the work of these cameras on police reports again and again and again, and they're helpful. It goes without saying. On the other hand, right, the collection of information it is absolutely we have an inability to control it, right? We don't know where it's stored. You know, they say we only take license play reader uh information. Well, it's a camera, it's a snap image. Of course you don't, of course you take more than that. And again, you look at the contractual agreements, or contractual agreements that are not to our benefit, they're to the benefit of whatever company that drafted them with terms and agreements again located in California.

Jamie Flanagan 12:33

So who owns these? And that's the thing. So I will I want to get back to the the drones, but we'll come back to the flock cameras.

Noise Laws And Proactive Rules

Jamie Flanagan 12:40

So the drones with like the delivery, right? Sure. So every community has a no noise ordinance. Absolutely. You know, I I would I would wager, I don't know for sure, but I would wager 99% of the communities in the Metro Detroit area has some sort of noise ordinance on the book. You can't cut your grass before 9 a.m. or something, right? And these these drones are noisy, but they're not that noisy, they're not that much more noisy than than your neighbor cutting their grass or weed whacking or whatever. But if they're weed whacking and cutting their grass every single day, you know, it becomes a neutral of itself, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Yeah.

Jamie Flanagan 13:17

So is there, you know, as these as these become more prolific, is there, oh, you can only go to this neighborhood so many times in a day. Is it is that something that can be legislated at a community or state level?

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Absolutely, both. You're absolutely right.

Jamie Flanagan 13:33

It should, of course. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, this is one of my my personal thought, but it's a thought that is not, you know, it's not that I was born with it, is something that has come as a result of my training and expertise as an attorney. Uh legislation needs to precede some of these events as opposed to the other way around, right? We've got this new technology, and it's just mushrooming and booming, exploding all over the place. Its uses are infinite, it seems, and it's affecting every aspect of life. And then we're just looking from the back and we're being told not your time to think or talk or do anything about this. It could that could cannot possibly be the answer. Our obligation, our need as a community is to have reasonable legislation that guides the conduct of the various uses of this technology. So, in thinking about noise, I'll give you my specific example. I am a prosecuting attorney for one for a small town in Oakland County. And in the sound, you're exactly right. We do have a noise ordinance. We used to have a noise ordinance that was very broad, that covered a lot of different uses, you know, like by way of its breadth. Over time, we've made it you know specific with respect to certain aspects so that we could protect our neighbors. Things like we've placed, for example, advisable requirements where you cannot exceed certain threshold uh as opposed to uh what we used to have in the past. And realistically, where we're gonna find ourselves, unless we legislate wisely now and we take the opportunity to do so now, where we're gonna find ourselves is at a situation where ultimately we are going to be chasing after drones because we haven't necessarily legislated a priori ahead of time. Yeah, and our community needs the solutions now, needs to set up a baseline now for every company to follow, as opposed to the other way around, where we chase them to be able to say, no, no, I know you've done this now for a year and a half, but from now on, I'm gonna be looking at you and measuring your decibels to be able to tell you whether you're exceeding the levels or you're not exceeding levels. And I know you've been doing your deliveries from you know 5 a.m. to like the next 5 a.m. 24 hours a day, seven days a week, but now we're gonna limit you to 7 a.m. to 11 p.m. You know, we can be chasing them. We have to set up the standard now, and this is the you know, the the difficulty and and the shortcoming that a lot of our legislators are are are showcasing is precisely this this notion of this inability to even foresee the issue that is coming like it's a train, right? It's left the station already, and we just need to be able to get ahead of it, yeah. And you know, and unless we do, we're not gonna be successful as a community. And this is already a difficult issue, and it's not a simple issue, obviously, but to sort of stick our head in the sand and say, Well, we'll see what happens, uh whether that's no solution. Yeah, that's no solution at

Liability When A Drone Crashes

SPEAKER_00 16:37

all. You know, in the meantime, these drones keep going over our heads, and uh and then are they safe?

Jamie Flanagan 16:42

You know, oh somebody's gonna drop a house on you too, you know. It's uh you know, so because they're not, it's it's you know, they're the size of a lawnmower, you know. It's like they're they're kind of big. So if this thing comes down, I mean, right now they're new and shiny and we're working well. Sure, you know, I managed to dominoes pizza for a bunch of years, and then you know, we provided some cars and people had their own cars and they were new and shiny at the beginning, but in a little later time, you know. So what happens if a a drone falls and and gets into traffic or hits your car parked in your driveway, you know, falls on your dog, falls on you. You know, what what you know what happens then? Who who's responsible? Is it is it the person who placed the order? Is it the company? Is it the is the manufacturer of the product that you ordered? Is it the person piloting the drone? Is it the person who designed the drone? Is it so well and I can tell you what it is, it's at all, at all. And then you're all coming to the party and we're gonna get the money out of the people's pockets.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Between our last two meetings, you've attended law school. I mean, I feel this is like a like a bar exam because that's exactly the answer. The answer is everybody gets involved, you know. Yeah, and and this is like uh an interesting you know, tidbit, but 80% of the cases that uh comprise the Oakland County Services Court have to do with some insurance claim of some sort, right? And and I think that's you know, this is gonna be one more avenue for insurance claims at the end of the day, but when it does fall, yeah, everybody becomes involved, right?

Jamie Flanagan 18:13

Oh, we we uh that's I one of my gigs in high school in college was I clerked for an attorney. Sure. And so you know, I was picking up his dry cleaning and then dropping off papers at the Supreme Court of Michigan. So I was doing you know, and everything in between, you know, lots of highlighting demo, you know, uh depositions for mediations, but yes, sir. Uh so yeah, it's it's but it's it's it's such a litigious society. Very much so. And we did defense, actually. We were like represented like Toys R Us, and Toys R Us is like if somebody's hurt, we'll pay them.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Sure. And yet there's still litigation.

Jamie Flanagan 18:45

If somebody, but they're like, I want $10 million, Toys are Us, nah, and I'll give you $10 million. We'll give you, you know, whatever reasonable. So that was our job was to to help them get to a reasonable number, but such a litigious, and and also many of those things that we were doing, it was like so at all, it was like everybody and anybody in and then figure out who's responsible.

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Yeah, and then remember, we've we've we've gone out there and under the guise of tort reform, we've done tort reform I don't know how many times in my lifetime alone, probably two or three already. And and I'm not sure that we're feeling any better about what we have right now than we did before the last one, right? Yeah, so it's it's and we you know, we're adding by not by not being deliberate about the way we legislate and the way we you know organize our life to protect our way of life, we let you know what we do is you know, our reality then lends itself to us being reactive as opposed to proactive, and all we end up doing is litigating that stuff. I'm an attorney, so on the one hand, I I see the benefit of it, but on the other hand, societally, you know, you know, we you're exactly right. We're such a litigious society, and there's no benefit to this. Yeah, if there was a benefit arising out of it, I'd get it. But you know, nobody ever would benefit me, let me pay my way through college.

Jamie Flanagan 19:58

That was a good gig.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Perhaps we could have gotten you another job, a better job.

Jamie Flanagan 20:02

It was a it was a good gig. I I considered the law, and I was like, yeah, no, it's like an unending research paper.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

That's very much so.

Jamie Flanagan 20:08

It's an unending research paper, nonstop. It's just you're always it's all because it's a case law, anyway. But so yeah, so I'm curious. I'm just morbidly, I hope nothing ever goes wrong, you know, and I hope no one ever gets hurt. But machines are machines, and and errors happen, and and and you know, something I'm curious if if the the person who placed the order would be named. Well, there would be a necessary because it wouldn't be in my neighborhood if you didn't place that order. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

You know, there would be a necessary party. Yeah, there'll be a necessary party to the litigation. I'm really interesting to see that and how that pans they may not they may not be you know ultimately found responsible to any you know healthy degree as far as judgments are concerned, but nonetheless they're a necessary party for purposes of litigation. So when I, attorney A, filed a lawsuit, I have to name all of them. Oh, yeah. I have to be comprehensive as opposed to under inclusive.

Jamie Flanagan 20:59

That's very interesting. I'm very curious to see if when that that starts to happen. It's it's inevitable. It's inevitable. I'm sure they're on. It's inevitable. That's right. All right, so the flock camps. Yes.

Flock Cameras And Data Ownership

Jamie Flanagan 21:10

So the flock camps, I was trying to get my kids to write about it because they put one up right on the corner by the school. I go, does anybody see that? And they'd be like, No, what are you talking about? I'm like, you guys are so oblivious. I go, they are watching you, and you're gonna have no idea. So I had taken a picture of it. I took it like so. I took a picture of it. So the next week I was like, okay, this is what I'm talking about. There's a flock camera right at the corner, you know, where you guys all turn in, they're looking at you. So who put it there?

SPEAKER_00 21:38

All these municipalities do, and it's unbelievable.

Jamie Flanagan 21:40

Yeah, who put it there? Who built it? Is someone watching it, or is it just an a computer program watching it and it triggers and sends an alert if there's something that should be alerted? Is it how where's that data kept? How long is it kept? Who has access to it?

SPEAKER_00 21:56

You know I'm telling you, you've gone to law school. I'm telling you, I know it. Now now you're in Now your job explains it all. You were paying attention when you were working for that man. That man was lucky. Yeah, these are all the you know, they're exceptional questions. It's just good reporting.

Jamie Flanagan 22:11

Yeah, I I it's it's it I want the answers to these questions that one of my kids to go do, and I never did.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

But yeah, here are some of those answers, and and and they they come from the fact that just about every community around us has placed flock cameras on them. So it's you know, we're absolutely inundated and surrounded by them. There's nowhere you go, with the exception of one municipality here and one in Washtenaw County, and I'll tell you those two, where you don't get flattered.

Jamie Flanagan 22:36

That's where you can go and be back.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Oh, that's right. You can go be back.

Jamie Flanagan 22:39

Go be back.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

But but but realistically, they're everywhere. So, like as you know, you and I both live in Troy. Troy has flack cameras, and they have them in basically at all uh points of entry and exit of the city on the most part. That's how they they set them up, and and and so do so many municipalities. The data is kept by Flock. The terms and agreement that they have, and Flock is just one camera, there's a lot of these licensed price uh plate readers. Uh Flock is the main competition.

Jamie Flanagan 23:04

It's just like it's it's it's Kleenex. It's just become the brand name name. Brand name has become the name of the product, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

That's precisely right. So they they they're out there, you know, like you know, they're the main competitor and and they they're collecting all the municipalities. Their terms and agreements say that, well, you know, you can negotiate the for how long they keep them. Uh for the most part, what makes sense is about 30 days, but you know, realistically, no data ever gets lost, as you and I both know. So you're you know, and and this has been one of the points of consternation and concern for all the members of our community is saying you're capturing this information, you're putting on information out there that says, oh, well, we we do nothing except for licensed play readers, but then you know, information shows up that says, you know, that that we that we find that uh the data is abused, right, is sold, is uh given to other entities. It's misused by those who monitor to answer the question about monitoring. So, for example, yeah, we have police officers that monitor it, you know, they're on a per case basis, but we've seen abuses throughout the country. Thankfully, knocking on wood, not here, not in this great state, but we've seen it throughout the country. People, you know, there's stories of you know, you know, again, and these are rogue police officers, stalking cases, yeah, stalking cases and things like let me look at what my ex-wife is doing, stuff like that, which is you know unnerving to say the least, because it shows the potential misuses that you could have of this technology, and it's happening. And if it's happening, and we're catching we're not catching them all, obviously. Sure, right? We're catching, you know, the fragrant, the flagrant uh examples, and and and that is that rests uneasy with any member of this community, I imagine. And you know, some communities I thought when they first came about, I must say we're all asleep at the wheel, yours truly included, because we're we're sitting there and you know, like nobody knows. You know, this was several years ago when they first came about. The the benefits on argument, you know, arguably outweigh the detriments certainly several years ago when we had no detriments to show, right? Because we had no use. But now at this particular point where we see several years later the uh benefits that obviously the police officers do see, and I can attest to, versus some of the detriments, the risk is frankly too great.

Constitution Concerns And Uneven Justice

SPEAKER_00 25:10

My own community the flat camera.

Jamie Flanagan 25:11

You think the flat cameras are too risky?

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Absolutely. Okay, I do. I think they are, you know, these license plate readers, the benefits do not outweigh the risk. Okay. Uh our data is fundamentally critical to our well-being at the end of the day. And we are, like I said earlier, I think in many ways, and perhaps it's inevitable, but I don't believe so, but perhaps it is inevitable. But it feels as if we're sleepwalking into the surveillance state. Yes. And this is one of the ways that we're doing so. And I think it's incumbent upon all of us, each of us, to be able to lend our voice, not to allow this to happen. There is a better way. We don't have policing, we don't have to do this. Policing has been happening to our benefit for I don't know, millennia, but certainly 250 years in this country. Yeah. Right. And they've solved crime without these, you know, the bells and whistles of new technologies. And and I remember, I can tell you, you know, the briefest little snippet of this of a prosecutor many, many you know, years ago when I first started in Macomb County, actually, and prosecutor attorney that I was asking for the video evidence on whatever drunk driving case I was, you know, uh handling at the time on behalf of a client. The prosecutor said, Well, you know, apparently there's a glitch in the uh camera of the police uh uh vehicle, so we don't have the we don't have any uh video. And I said, Well, are you dismissing the case? And he absolutely lost his marbles, he melted. He went nuts. He's like, Are you kidding me? Why would I dismiss this case? He's like, You think we didn't prosecute cases before there was cameras? And of course he was correct.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

Yeah, right. Of course he was correct. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Yeah, and there was drunk driving drivings before cameras, and and they're gonna be long before, you know, long after cameras are gone, right? And we have nothing but AI technology that deals with this stuff. So same holds true for this. I think we've been we've been handling crime, and police have been doing a great job all along. And of course, there are so many technologies that are available to them and they're going to be available to them down the road. Yeah things that we don't even perhaps perceive right now. But you know, one thing that's not going to change, or at least we don't presume will change or should change, it's constitutional United States.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

That needs to be paramount. And some ideas like you know, freedom and democracy, and you know, uh First Amendment rights, you know, right to free speech, right to assembly, peacefully assembled, and so on and so forth, those concepts are more important than flock cameras.

Jamie Flanagan 27:29

Is it what's uh is it is it two or five search and seizure? Four. Four, oh all right, yeah. So you might I didn't go to Los Angeles. Uh so but so does that constitute do these flock cameras border on, you know, absolutely, you know, on unsolicited searches?

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Is it as un so I I imagine that the uh the calculation of the analysis is a little complex because they're out there, right? And one of the interesting things is uh you you've really zeroed into you know a very interesting issue. And here it is, as simply put as possible. At the end of the day, it is available to me as a prosecuting attorney. The data from the flat camera, because the moment the issue arises, right, you know, the police officer goes out there and handles it with the benefit of the flat camera. However, it is not necessarily because they're just seeing where a vehicle is going from one point to another to another, right? And is showing a movement from point A to point B to point C without any context per se. Right. And it's available to him, therefore it's available to me. Yeah, it's not available on a case where there may not be an issue on the case to the defendant for disculpatory purposes. That being the case, think about the you know, the the juxtaposition that you know when we put those two concepts next to one another, where prosecution and police are seeing the benefit from these elements, whereas defendants, those charged whether with or without reason, yeah, don't have the same benefit. Now all of a sudden the justice system is no longer just.

Jamie Flanagan 29:04

So I know how to, but here's the thing, right? I know how to pave the roads and fund that new library that you want. All we got to do is mail out tickets to everybody driving around with an unregistered license plate or an expired plate. We'll just mail you the ticket. Yeah, you were on the road. Here you are. You were here and here and here, you were on the road with that expired plate.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Here's a ticket, Skippy. And I'll give you that answer, but I'll give it the answer, which is which is you then we then we got a new library. That's right. Yeah, the question is for the kids. The question is definitely and your question answers it as well at the same time. Uh I'll give you I and I had I had this case less than a few months ago where the camera, a flat camera, was used to show an accident that the police believed had occurred as a result of my client's action, right? And they said, Look, here's your you know, like there was a hit and run because they believe that you know my client had hit somebody else's car, and said, Here's you know, like you know what we see. We see the day before there was no ding on your client's car, the day after here's a ding, right? And and oh boy, you know, your client is guilty, right? It made the jump. Whereas you gotta love this neighbors, next door neighbor to my client has ring cameras, which showed my client hit her own mailbox in the same day, right? But but but for that, like talk about the war of technology, sure, yeah. You know, but for that, you know, we're talking about a hit or run is a 93-day misdemeanor.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

You know, there's a lot at stake, yeah, right. And so we we we we see these technologies as you know giving us the ability to help, and they do quite a bit, right? Think about your average case of lost grandpa uh with dementia, right? You know, that may be beneficial, even though it's a licensed player reader. I'm sure we could use it to find somebody going down the street. And you know, so you can have that benefit, but on the other hand, what is the cost of charging someone who hasn't committed a crime, hasn't done anything wrong, charging them with a crime, putting them through the justice system, which is not for the faint of heart, as you know. Sure. And and and and and and getting and and for what for what reason, right? Where we could do good old policing the way we used to do and the way the way we've always done it, and accomplish what we need to accomplish. And I'm not sure that any new library would ever justify the cost of the trampling of our constitutional rights, right? There is, and you know, you know yours truly loves libraries, right? I fought for our Troy library to be where it is today, and I'll continue to do so. And but at the end of the day, our constitutional rights, right? The rights that we you know go and read about in that very library, they tell us that we need to do better with what we have.

Jamie Flanagan 31:50

So, I mean, because I I know Hamptramic and and Royal Oak have both double backed on on their parking meters, right? And the like the smart parking meters that would just uh Royal Oak emailed me a parking ticket. It's like you were there for one hour and two minutes, here's your ticket. I'm like, Are you kidding me? And then it comes in the mail, and I was like, my car was registered under Colleen's name at the time, and she's like, What's this? I was like, Thank you, Roy Oak. Exactly. That was the way to go. But yeah, so but yeah, it was like you know, I was over, I was over time, sure, you know, but there's a better way, so but the but they've gone back, and because I think they got a lot of uh back. So actually, Roy Lokan and and is is doing something different, and Ham Tramic got rid of them, and I think they're going to do something different, but that's that's interesting. But the flock cameras are out there. So how do

Taking Cameras Down Through Renewals

Jamie Flanagan 32:41

we do we just like take them down? I mean, because the the the the the herd of cats is out of the box. No, not necessarily good luck, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Yeah, not necessarily. You know, think about the and communities are you know, like are all dealing because now where we're what's happening is the renewals are occurring, right? So you know, uh uh uh on the renewal, Farndale took theirs down, took their away. It's renewal city of Clausen took theirs away. Oh wow, right? And and so it can be done. There's no harm to this. Okay. Clausen is still not, you know, like you know, the capital of crime or anything like that. It's still the loveliest city that you could possibly go to in Oakland County, and and and and there's no crime that's flourishing there or in Ferndale or Ann Arbor where this, you know, these cameras have been taken down. But you know, some of but it it it little does it help when you have the larger, you know, our city of Troy still has the flat cameras, you know, Oakland County still has flat cameras, obviously, and and the drones. You know, I I think we need a more holistic approach when it comes to this. And I think this has been the failure of our legislators. They've gone out there and they've just been asleep at the wheel and seen like, well, let every community deal with it. Well, yes, but you know, we're negotiating for the city of Clauset to negotiate as a 2.2 square mile city with about 12,500 residents, right? And that economic power and that strength and that ability to deal with things, to go out there and to negotiate with a behemoth, a billion-dollar company. Like what the stakes are not quite where they should be, right? You know, you know, you know, we don't have evenness when it comes to this. So there is a better way, and just our legislators are failing that better path, I think. You know, and and we can and must do better for our community.

Jamie Flanagan 34:19

So

Data Centers Noise And Water Use

Jamie Flanagan 34:20

data centers, talking about the noise of the drones earlier, and and one of the major complaints, the two major complaints I see on the data centers is one is the noise, absolutely, and then the second is water usage. Absolutely. Both in uh this Great Lake state that we're in, we we're not as protective of our water as we should be. Correct. Uh, I I do believe. But and I read different things that uh they they don't actually use that much water, nonsense. Um, you know, so they do use water, but it's not to the level of you know, it's melting the polar ice gaps. But they are noisy, but I haven't been to one personally, and and you said you hadn't been physically moving in the one. But I've seen videos, and but I I would actually like to be like in the parking lot of one, and it's like, how noisy is this? If I'm the neighbor living here within a hundred yards of this, you know, how noisy is it? Because there's a dog kennel down uh from me, and it's like I'm a good core, I'm a good half mile away from this dog kennel, and I hear them dogs and feeding time every day. I hear no them dogs are there, so I you know how noisy is it? And is that something that again, because there are how many?

SPEAKER_00 35:29

You said there's 50 some 53 of the state of Michigan currently, yeah, with several in the works, and are they that noisy? Yeah, apparently, and I haven't much like you, I haven't been inside or near one myself, but the way that and I'll I'll I'll give you the the story of where I heard it and my source of information. The Oakland University kids, college democrats were deeply involved in the treatment of one of these data centers that is proposed at one of the parking lots at Oakland University. Okay, right, and they've approved the plans at first. It was you know, and if you're familiar with Oakland University, now that you would know you know the numbers, but there's a parking lot 35, right? Nondescript parking lot, you know, near the entrance of OU. And then parking lot 37 next door, it was first you know proposed near parking lot 35, which was near a native uh uh burial site. And then there was a lot of consternation with respect to that. The students didn't want it for that reason, along with the humming sound and so on and so forth. And now it's proposed for number 37. All that to say that we I invited the OU uh College Democrats to come to one of our you know Troy Democratic Club meetings to come present their issues. And part of the presentation, uh, they talked about the constant humming sounds that you would emanate that is constant 24-7 from the operation of the data center that is proposed. And the way they described it is as a sound that would be audible if you were within the vicinity, and the vicinity they described as several houses down from it, from your location. And it's the kind that you know they did the way they described it is as a you know sort of disorienting, distorting sound. Okay. And to me, you know, personally, I I I don't have to, I don't have to necessarily believe precisely that to know that I wouldn't want that near one of our communities, right? 53 locations already. And and and I think there is again to speak as or to to to to to uh reiterate what we said earlier, legislation needs to precede this kind of development as opposed to let's develop first and then legislate around what we learn. Yeah, that's nonsense. We need to be able to go out there and basically go to the bottom of our understanding with respect to the uses, the benefits, the detriments, and and so on and so forth, legislate. So develop the process, legislate around the process, make that the process to be followed, the best possible process you can have, and then continue with development, right? And and of course, this use of water thing, it's interesting because I and I've I've read the same article, I think, that you have, which is like, yeah, yeah, they're using water, but it's not that much water. Let's relax, Michigan. And you're right. We don't do as great a job as we need to do with respect to this amazing resource that we've been granted by nature, right? Yeah, you know, that that we're surrounded by water and we take it for granted, I think, right? And I mean, do I want faster internet? I know I'm reducing it down to core imbecility here, but do I want faster internet? Absolutely. Do I care to have faster internet to the detriment of I don't know, any little pond in Michigan? Absolutely not. Yeah, I mean, it's ridiculous to think about it, right? Yeah, this is our natural resource, our number one natural resource. It would be it would be absurd of us as adults to leave to the next generation something diminished because we needed to be able to Google something quicker. I mean, come on, it's ridiculous.

Jamie Flanagan 39:07

So there's a lot of work for the next round of legislators to do.

How To Reach Ren And Wrap

Jamie Flanagan 39:12

So, with luck, you'll be in that uh group working working hard on this. So, people want to talk to you about this. Do you have any uh events coming up where you're gonna, you know, uh sit and talk with people or can they email you absolutely through their super slow aisle of internet?

SPEAKER_00 39:25

The one the super slow internet that we're offering, yes. Yes, absolutely. Like you know, like a l.com has absolutely obviously I'm available at for anyone at any time. Email, call, text, whatever you need to. Uh events galore. If you go to my website, ren number four micena.com. We have all those listed and we keep that updated all the time on every social media that I know, and some that I'm not aware of, or that you know, so so by all means, you know, make yourself as soon as the smoke clears, we'll get back out there and you'll meet some people.

Jamie Flanagan 39:57

We canceled a few events, so like absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Like just stay safe in the meantime. That's all we can say.

Jamie Flanagan 40:02

Yeah. Wow. All right. Anything else? We uh I think we covered those pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Jamie, thank you. Like I said, I'm so impressed with the legal knowledge today.

Jamie Flanagan 40:10

I'm telling you, man. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Yes, it is. I love it. I love it. I'm a very dangerous man. Yeah, but yes, I'll tell you, I'll agree to that. All right, well, thank you. Thank you, sir.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Thank you so much.